X-Men: Apocalypse (2016): The Mutants face their worst foe (hint: It’s Bryan Singer) X-Men: Apocalypse (2016): The Mutants face their worst foe (hint: It’s Bryan Singer)
A review of the latest X-Men movie and some thoughts about the status of the franchise in general. X-Men: Apocalypse (2016): The Mutants face their worst foe (hint: It’s Bryan Singer)

This movies has some mild spoilers, but I am not giving away anything of significance. Ocassional spoilers are tagged.

The Plot

1983. Ten years after the events of X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014), Magneto (Michael Fassbender) and Mystique (Jennifer Lawrence) are still on the run, alternately revered as heroes or damned as terrorist among the human and mutant population. Professor X (James McAvoy) and Beast (Nicholas Hoult) are considering the inception of the X-Men team, although the relationship between humans and mutants is better than ever before. The situation is stirred up dramatically when an ancient, extremely powerful mutant from Egypt, En Sarab Nur aka “Apocalypse” (Oscar Isaac) is resurrected and strives to destroy mankind, an endeavour for which he needs to recruit four mutant “horsemen” as helpers.

X-Mess

The X-Men franchise has always been a bumpy ride. While the first X-Men from 2000, helmed by Bryan Singer, has frequently been credited with being the first superhero movie to integrate its heroes into the “real world”, including real world- politics, -problems etc., the film and its sequel from 2002 felt outdated quickly (especially after  Batman Begins upped the ante for the genre) and they have honestly never been satisfying adaptations of the source material. A lot of it has to do with Singer, whose approach always felt small-scale, claustrophobic almost and who photographed them in a bland TV-movie look. Not exactly the right tone for a sprawling, complex and colourful saga as the X-Men. The rather heavy-handed socio-critical messages and the plodding, cumbersome writing did the rest. The excellent fight choreography in X2, orchestrated by Hong Kong- genius Yuen Woo Ping, only accentuated how sluggish and often shamelessly derivative the rest was. If it wasn’t for the great cast, those movies would be nigh unwatchable.

In my eyes, it’s unfair to solely blame Brett Ratner for the shortcomings of part three, X-Men: The Last Stand (2006), as he had to rush it due to a mess that was caused by a troubled production history and rely on the writers. In the meantime, Singer went on to make the also very boring Superman Returns (2006). At least Ratner imbued the chaotic story with a good sense for pacing, something Singer never had.

But things changed drastically when Matthew Vaughn was brought on board to direct the prequel X-Men: First Class (2011) with a brand new cast. Finally an X-Men movie with style, visual pizazz and, most importantly, scope. The way First Class weaved real history into the mythology was equally masterful and effortless. Vaughn left the sequel X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014) during pre-production and Singer returned as director. Thankfully Singer, who had just received mixed to negative reactions for three movies in a row, was humbled and wise enough to base the movie on Vaughn’s groundwork, even imitating his visual style successfully. That’s why DOFP turned out to be a worthy and wholesome successor to First Class.

But Apocalypse marks the first time since X2 when Singer is completely on his own again and boy, does he confirm all my prejudices against his body of work (sadly). Ole Singer is back with a vengeance.

xmen0001

X gonna give it to ya (or not)

It starts out good. After a somewhat decent prelude in ancient Egypt that shows how Apocalypse was buried for thousands of years under the rubble of a collapsed pyramid, the plot flashes forward to East Berlin, 1983. Around the 20 minute mark though, I already noticed that one crucial element that made the two previous movies so enjoyable is missing: The period atmosphere is thick and authentic, with perfectly chosen wardrobe and set design, but it is soon obvious that it is reduced to staffage only. There are some allusions to Afghanistan and the Cold War, but it’s half-assed window dressing, at no point the spirit and politics of the decade are captured as beautifully as the 60s and 70s in First Class and DOFP respectively. Instead we get a pretty simplistic, yet all the more needlessly long-winded superheroes vs. villain plot whose script must have been hidden in a vault since 1997 (not unlike Apocalypse himself). This is unacceptable in times when the genre is constantly getting more complex and varied in terms of storytelling and subtexts. Its simplicity is not a refreshing alternative to the increasingly convoluted mythologies of the competing franchises either, as it still requires a lot of prior knowledge about the characters. Even worse though, everything is dragged down by a seriousness that mistakes drab soap melodrama for real gravitas.

For a movie that puts the name of its villain in the title, the respective character and his motivations are a joke. Apocalypse is practically a cross between Imhotep from the Mummy movies and Dracula from Blade: Trinity, wearing a costume that probably looked better on paper than on screen and his sole motivation is to destroy mankind based on some vague social-darwinist beliefs. All he needs to execute his plans are four mutant helpers, so they can wreak havoc together by joining forces. Yep, that’s it. This recruiting process needs a good chunk of the running time of the movie, just to culminate in a sudden, but overlong showdown that buries the screen in an avalanche of well-worn images of (mediocre) CGI- particle storms and clashing light beams. X-cess.

That’s why I cannot blame the otherwise brilliant Oscar Isaac for phoning it in. He isn’t the only one who is unable to elevate the poor material due to what little he has to work with. Jennifer Lawrence isn’t even pretending that her performance as Mystique is anything else but a listless Katniss-routine, while Nicolas Hoult as Beast and Tye Sheridan as Cyclops barely get the necessary screentime to shine. Traditionally, Storm (Alexandra Shipp) has to spout the worst lines, at least nothing about toads and lightnings. Only McAvoy, Rose Byrne, Evan Peters and Fassbender show some enthusiasm for their parts. Particularly Fassbender puts more passion into his performance as Magneto than the character deserves, now that his character arc starts to resemble that of Paul Kersey. Peters as Quicksilver gets the probably best scene of the movie, using his super-speed powers in a lengthy sequence to the tune of “Sweet Dreams” by the Eurhythmics, although that’s also just a variation of a similar scene from DOFP.

X-Men-Apocalypse-Trailer-Storm-Horseman

Atop of that, the script is riddled with questionable character motivations which makes it a frustrating experience trying to identify with anyone. (Spoilers) How are we supposed to forgive Magneto again? Why does Quicksilver hold back with a certain information that could have saved the day in a second? (Spoilers End). Make your own mind up about a certain cameo, I thought it was ludicrous.

X-resume

X-Men: Apocalypse is -if you needed another one- the ultimate proof that Singer has to leave the franchise for good. In comparison to the three preceding superhero- spectacles of 2016, it feels outdated and lacks any spark or vision. Thanks for your services Singer, it’s time to go now, before this affair can only be saved via reboot.

psylocke-168811

Symptomatic: There is a scene in the middle of the movie when three young mutants leave a theatre after seeing Return of the Jedi. They discuss if The Empire Strikes Back was the peak of the Star Wars saga and they conclude with “we can agree that the third part is always the weakest”. It’s a pretty obvious stab against Ratner’s The Last Stand, but Singer somehow missed that this can be also applied to Apocalypse, which is practically the third part in the “new” trilogy that started with the franchise makeover First Class. Oh the irony.

Author Image

DetectiveDee

Detective Dee reviews movies and sometimes TV-series. He likes to indulge in the Asian cinema, exploitation flicks and the horror genre but is no stranger to Blockbuster culture either. He writes whatever he wants, but always aims to entertain.

  • I_am_better

    Eurythmics?
    I’m in.

  • Dee-abolik

    It’s the only thing that works.

  • KilliK

    lol at the title. yeah, I am gonna watch it fomorrow, mainly for the babes.
    who would have thought that JLAW is sluttier than Munn in the same movie:

    https://youtu.be/B-6EJAoBV0c?t=4m26s

  • Foster Breadford

    Dee please! Vaughn left X3 shortly before filming. Singer was never involved beyond preliminary discussions and an incomplete story treatment in early 2004.

  • Dee-abolik

    oops! corrected. next time I will skim the wikipedia article more carefully!

  • Foster Breadford

    As any respectable journalist learns in school!

  • Dee-abolik

    I’ll read every 2nd word instead of every 3rd from now on.

  • Toruk_Makto

    I just can’t say enough bad things about Singer’s X-men…it, really makes me sad.

    As far as I’m concerned the X-men have always been 20x cooler/more interesting to me than the rest of the Marvel Universe. I was an X-man first and foremost. Nothing against Spider-man or Captain America but the X-world was where I hung my hat.

    To…over the years….see these characters hollowed out for spare parts….reduced to sentences. Just breaks me ole heart.

  • Foster Breadford

    Efficient but thorough

  • Bop

    Huge disappointment this movie was. If I had seen it in the cinema I would have wanted my money back. Only highlight of the movie was the Quicksilver rescue scene.

  • Xiphos

    Ok so it’s just another Marvel movie got.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    That cow has udders. I’d love to do the milking.

  • KilliK

    she does. and she is not shy of exposing them.

  • KilliK

    ditto. I was ecstatic when the first two movies came out. but after all these years, the property hasnt reached its full potential in the cinematic medium. such a rich world in both characters and stories, but they turned it into Wolverine/Cow and their friends. fuck that shit. Singer must leave and bring some young,fresh talent.

  • Bop

    What is your opinion of the X-world of the 90s?

  • Bop

    It is.

  • Tarmac492.1

    i dont get a director doing 5 or six of the same series. i get it but come on. singer, jackson and romero have all wasted time on mediocre to cunt fuck shitty entries into franchises. i never thought singer nailed a full flick of xmen(i have some xmen comic experience) more suspects or apt pupil from him. jackson and hobbits? whatevs on those last three. smaug no vermithrax. and romeros zombie flicks? talk about pejorative what was survival of the dead?

  • Tarmac492.1

    whit stillmans xmen. eigerman as a middle aged cyclops

  • Tarmac492.1

    peters was entertaining in the last x fuck flick. i enjoyed that one pretty ok.

  • Toruk_Makto

    Not entirely sure what you mean, I wasn’t around for most of the nineties…perhaps you are referring to some general meme, or consensus regarding the property at that time?

    I will state the reason I stopped reading X-men…and then comics in general.

    Strike one – Chris Claremont left.

    Strike two – was Magneto extracting Wolverine’s adamantium. All these years these guys have battled and now they decide they want to take it there? “Ooh we’re so fuckin’ edgy and hardcore.” Have you thought this through?…fuck off.

    Strike three – In an attempt to patch this spectacularly idiotic decision we’ll come up with some bone claw bullshit. Fuck-Right-Off two times.

    In general I didn’t like the storytelling decisions being made….at all. So I said to myself, self…isn’t it more fun to play with your own characters in your own universe than have to get irritated by these nitwits? So I said yeah….and was done.

  • Tarmac492.1

    journalism school is about as useful as a degree from trump university., u gotta call em like u see em

  • Tarmac492.1

    😂😂

  • Tarmac492.1

    piscopo would have been an excellent nightcrawler. career here then >bamf< it dissapears. 🙁

  • Bop

    Your reasons to stop reading comics were almost the same as mine.
    and the X-examples you wrote down all sound like they were done in the 90s.

  • Toruk_Makto

    Yeah, I guess it was…1990, 91 something like that. (edit..looks like it was 93-94).

    It was a really bizarre experience. Kinda like having a favorite drink…but then over the course of a few months you slowly notice that you don’t like the taste anymore.

    You think maybe it’s just your imagination until you confirm the goddamn ingredients have been changed.

  • Toruk_Makto

    Yeah, I remember the first movie. I was on the hype train. I could remember overlooking shit because I was excited X-men were on screen.

    …Rogue’s not a bad guy….hmm okay
    —Wait why is Rogue even in this one…she doesn’t show until years after wolverine becomes a member? Hmmm…okay, whatever, X-men movie!
    —Wolverine thrown from vehicle..cool
    —Healing factor….cool…a little too fast though…okay a lot too fast….whatever.
    —Hey! it’s Sabre….tooth?
    —-Why isn’t he speaking….?
    Then the hits just kept on coming…
    Cyclops, Storm…ugh, ugh, ugh…

  • Kathryn Hearn

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  • Dee-abolik

    Totally agree…Singer is just clinging to his money cow after he messed up a few movies. Have you seen Apt Pupil lately? It does not hold up.

  • Stalk👁

    Thanks for enduring the torture of seeing and reviewing this trainwreck of a sequel Dee.
    Thou had to suffer for one’s art. Well placed attack! Well, I take it that BvS/DC/WB/Snyder can breathe some sigh of relief or take solace in the abysmal film.

  • Stalk👁

    Don’t hate.

  • Stalk👁

    So, Brother. How about that last episode of Banshee..

  • Xiphos

    Who’s “hating”? I just stated a fact.

  • Tarmac492.1

    Really? I enjoyed that one back in 98 or whatever. maybe he is just an average hack who got lucky with a few flicks?

  • Dee-abolik

    Thanks! Apparently the movie is doing fine at the BO so far…

  • Stalk👁

    Those loyal X-Men groupies I guess. I was tempted to see it just so I can trash it via SN review but you beat me to it and for that, I am glad because you saved me the trouble. (0=

  • Stalk👁

    “Symptomatic: There is a scene in the middle of the movie when three young mutants leave a theatre after seeing Return of the Jedi. They discuss if The Empire Strikes Back was the peak of the Star Wars saga and they conclude with “we can agree that the third part is always the weakest”. It’s a pretty obvious stab against Ratner’s The Last Stand, but Singer somehow missed that this can be also applied to Apocalypse, which is practically the third part in the “new” trilogy that started with the franchise makeover First Class. Oh the irony.”

    Nice sick burn! I heard that this sequel is even worse than “The Last Stand”! Zoiks!!!

  • Stalk👁

    Munn is overrated and JLaw despite her flaws, is still a much better actress.

  • KilliK

    WHAT A BOREFEST!
    just came from the movie. it’s Superman Returns all over again. a well-crafted superhero movie but ultimately very, very boring. scarce action while they spend most of the time talking and crying, talking and crying…zzzzzz…I almost wen asleep…zzzzzz….

    if you havent seen the movie yet, SAVE YOUR MONEY, and go watch something else instead. and wait until Singer leaves the franchise.

  • Dee-abolik

    It is! Whatever you think of Last Stand, it’s not boring.

  • Dee-abolik

    What did you think of the Magneto story? Aren’t they stretching it a little?

  • KilliK

    stretching it? they tore it apart. i dont know what they were thinking with that unnecessary subplot, which if I am not mistaken doesnt even happen in the comics.

  • Dee-abolik

    How can they build on that? It’s kind of tough to feel sympathy for that character any longer.

  • KilliK

    yeah, and it doesnt even pass the message they were going for: the villagers wanted to arrest Eric because he was a terrorist on the run who had murdered people, not because he was a mutant whom they were afraid of.

    no, Eric, you cant have a normal life because you murdered people. not because you are mutant. even if you were a human, you couldnt have a normal life after attacking and trying to murder the head of the USA in front of millions.

    the whole thing didnt make much sense as subtext goes.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Sounds like a real piece of shit. Singer must have lied because he promised that, unlike Days of Future Past, Apocalypse would be more of an action/disaster movie and less of a drama.

  • Dee-abolik

    True! I’d like to see them thinking up a new role for Magneto, not just the foe/friend. And the Auschwitz scene was beyond awful.

  • Dee-abolik

    The disaster scenes are tiring. Nothing you haven’t seen better in other movies.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Perhaps I should skip this and save myself for Independence Day 2, then. At least Emmerich, dumb as his movies are, gives audiences their money’s worth in that department.

  • KilliK

    yes, he did but he didnt do it, unless you call disaster the demolition of Cairo and a bunch of bridges around the world in a one minute sequence. the only action highlights are Quicksilver saving the students and Wolverine killing the soldiers. and that’s it. the end battle ended very fast and was very uninspired, very dull. even more annoying was the fact that you were essentially watching kids fighting each other who happen to be good guys in both the comics and movies. there were no true villains in this movie except for Apocalypse.

    oh, and Apocalypse going gigantic in the trailer? the rumors were right, it’s only a battle between him and Xavier in their minds, it doesnt happen in the real world.

    FUCK THIS SHIT. WHERE IS MY WARCRAFT, DAMMIT?

  • KilliK

    i said the same thing to my pal. that we should have saved our money for ID4-2. at least with BVS, you have a movie which is so bad that becomes entertaining. But XM:A is boring, there is no fun in there. only endless talking and crying. even the chicks with their revealing outfits were barely seen in the movie.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Again, it seems they’re relying on only one or two characters. Quicksilver’s scene was a highlight of the previous movie, so they bring him back and again he’s one of the few bright spots? And it wouldn’t be an X-Men movie without the obligatory Wolverine scene. How lazy and uninspired.

    And to hell with that Apocalypse bait-and-switch. I knew they’d do something like it.

    I don’t think Singer will be going anywhere, though. X: Apocalypse has already wracked up hundreds of millions globally, so there’s virtually no chance of that bore abdicating the throne. He wants to murder the Dark Phoenix saga next and take things into space? Heaven help us all!

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    These are the worst kinds of movies, definitely.

  • KilliK

    they are trying too hard to turn him into a tragic anti-hero when he is not. in the comics, he is a true villain with a tragic past. that’s the difference. and what was the point of the Auschwitz scene? wouldnt it make more sense to take him in the graves of his recently killed family?
    but lets choke the movie full with melodrama because we are artists who are making a very serious, adult superhero movie.

  • KilliK

    i took my lesson. torrents for me from now on as the X-Men movies are regarded. until Singer gets the shaft. and yes, they rely on the same 2-3 characters, Eric,Xavier and the Cow (although less with her this time).

    Wolverine had a forced cameo which was also a fan service (as a Weapon-X wearing the VR getup) but script-wise was Orci level retarded. (they keep their ferocious weapon locked in a cage, which is put unguarded in the military base’s generator room, christ).

    I ll tell you this to understand how shitty this movie is: it’s even more boring that Godzilla. that shitty.

  • KilliK

    just saw it, mate. the movie sucks. avoid it.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    “I ll tell you this to understand how shitty this movie is: it’s even more boring that Godzilla. that shitty.”

    LOL. But I found Godzilla entertaining! Skyfall, on the other hand…that’s the benchmark for a snoozefest for me. If X: A is worse than that, then I don’t know what to say…

  • KilliK

    cant say it’s worse than Skyfall. i ll put them in the same league.

  • Sagamanus

    I will never be interested in the X-Men films as long as Singer is attached. Of course I don’t like First Class either, but then again Magneto might as well be wearing a Hammer Dracula costume at this point.

  • Stalk👁

    if there’s one good thing I could say about TLS, is that it was the very first Marvel film or film in general that started the trend of mid to post credits.
    And of all studios, it came from FOX!

  • Zed

    Sophie Turner is so cute. Makes Daisy Ridley look like a pile of puke.

  • Zed

    If the ladies get all that Hugh Jackman beefcake, I really don’t see why superheroines shouldn’t wear authentically ludicrous costumes. Compared to the comics, Munn looks like a cosplaying Puritan.

  • Stalk👁

    “Talking and crying”?
    So basically, its like reality TV?

  • Luxury Slap

    Very good piece, very professional style and analysis.
    Do you think that now that Lawrence is a big star she can demand to use her own face and wear clothes?

  • ErnestRister

    I don’t dislike Singer’s films, I don’t love them, either, If that makes sense. They just kind of…are.

  • Dee-abolik

    Thanks! Well, actually you are right on. It was part of her contract!

  • Dee-abolik

    No, that actually makes perfect sense.

  • CoolHandJuke

    bite your tongue…

  • CoolHandJuke

    do Mystique and Psychloke have a contest to see who can eat the other’s vag longer?

  • jim83

    Fox was always very short sighted when it came to the X-men as a
    franchise, i can understand not wanting to make a 150 million dollar
    movie back in 99, things were more risky with those movies back then but
    they just managed to run the franchise to the ground by the end of 2006
    and i really don’t know why.It’s like they wanted it to fail.First
    class should have been a reboot of the franchise with the original X-men
    team roster and McAvoy-Fassbender who were brilliantly cast by
    Vaughn.It would have solved all the continuity problems and they would
    have a chance to build a solid team franchise even better than the
    Avengers.

  • Dee-abolik

    no

  • Bop

    That whole Magneto crap was crap of the highest order. I get it that they have to make the movie accessible to as many people, because they want money, but this Magneto thing was boring beyond boring. Quite franky it was an insult to the moviegoer, comic reader or not.

  • Bop

    Piscopo would have kicked the shit out of Apocalypse.

  • Bop

    Bryan Singer should be called Bryan Stinker after this crapfest.

  • CoolHandJuke

    Well then fuck…that…

  • Bop

    I don’t know about you, bro, but I fucking hated this season. Before it started I thought it might kick The Shield from the first position. It sure didn’t. I don’t know what those writers smoked, but it sure had impact. Instead of going out with a blaze of glory they made their version of Prison Break season 4 and Supernatural season 10.
    The first episode was great.Then 6 episodes of crap followed. The last ep was ok, but robbed the audience of some real good fights.
    Elisha Dushku, as much as I like her, was totally out of place. Not only that, you could see the difference in her acting and the rest of the cast. She was also useless in the show. Don’t get me started on the pussy nazis or that horned motherfucker. And why the fuck was Sugar hardly in the show? He is the heart and soul of Banshee. Still, the first 3 seasons is some of the best television I ever saw. No one can take that away.

  • Toruk_Makto

    Bummer. I was looking forward to binge-watching season 4.
    Now…not so much.

  • Dee-abolik

    yep

  • Stalk👁

    You’re right about a few things. The “Who killed Rebecca” was a lame ass whodunnit arc and the revelation of who killed her and why was somewhat predictable. I saw the Neo Nazi douchebag getting his a mile away and the only thing i can say about it was the politician involved with the Aryan brotherhood is of no surprise to me since there are some within the united states that have an affiliation to these types of hate groups. (Senator Robert Byrd.) Sugar was an important part of the series and its unfortunate that he had to take a backseat to the other characters. Well, at least Job had a great send off. I’ll miss that fucker but at least he came to grips with overcoming his PTSD after being captured.

    And Lucas would’ve been dead in the real world. How can you give one too many headbutts without succumbing to brain damage?? I made the mistake of trying that shit in a real fight decades ago, and I almost got knocked out…..by ME! That shit aint as effective as you see on television!

    As for Dushku, at least I got to see her nekkid, so that’s a plus! (0=

  • Bop

    Job was fucking awesome. He had all the good lines. I wish there were a spin-off with Sugar and Job. That would be so fucking awesome.
    Headbutts are never a good idea, I think unless you have a motor helmet on. 🙂

    Dushku nekkid, huh? 🙂

  • Stalk👁

    A Job and Sugar spin off would have been nice but at least it was a happier ending than SOA or the Shield. I’ll miss those fuckers!

  • southafricanguy

    I liked it myself. Seen it twice so far. Not as good as the excellent Days of Future Past, but was good.

    For me Singer has done an excellent job with the Xmen films. X2 and DOFP (as well as First Class, Deadpool, and the Wolverine) as all as good as any MCU film (which also vary and fluctuate in quality).

    New blood is coming in with Miller on Deadpool 2 and Josh Boone on the New Mutants.

    That being said…..four films is enough. It’s time for new fresh blood to come in on the main Xmen films. I think I read the other day that Singer basically confirmed that he is taking a break. I would say bring back Vaughn for another crack at it, or see if Whedon isn’t busy.

  • Full Frontal Throttle

    Why don’t you stop watching, you are waste of stale talent

  • Full Frontal Throttle

    Does not suck, you suck, it is just ok

  • Full Frontal Throttle

    Sorta of like Avaturd, right?

  • Full Frontal Throttle

    You are overreacting again. Simmer down Summer

  • Full Frontal Throttle

    You are boring………

  • southafricanguy

    i still enjoyed looking at Munn as Psylocke

  • southafricanguy

    liked it myself. Seen it twice so far. Not as good as the excellent Days of Future Past, but was good.

    For me Singer has done an excellent job with the Xmen films. X2 and DOFP (as well as First Class, Deadpool, and the Wolverine) as all as good as any MCU film (which also vary and fluctuate in quality).

    New blood is coming in with Miller on Deadpool 2 and Josh Boone on the New Mutants.

    That being said…..four films is enough. It’s time for new fresh blood to come in on the main Xmen films. I think I read the other day that Singer basically confirmed that he is taking a break. I would say bring back Vaughn for another crack at it, or see if Whedon isn’t busy.

  • southafricanguy

    pretty much why I stopped reading comics too

  • Tarmac492.1

    full scale carnage and destruction with awesome special effects makes me yawn like a Sunday morning in church.

  • Stalk👁

    Vaughn did an amazing job with First Class so if anyone is worthy of being Singer’s successor, it Matty Boy!
    I still need to check out the Rogue cut of DOFP and perhaps give it a review based on my impressions.

  • Stalk👁

    Well, it worked great for Captain America Winter Soldier.
    Avengers Age of Ultron, not so much.

  • Stalk👁

    Creepy loved it.

  • KilliK

    Creepy loves fucking carcasses of dead animals. it doesnt mean shit.

  • southafricanguy

    I own the Route cut. Not a different movie….but some nice additional scenes that just add to the overall film.

  • Stalk👁

    I have seen it the other day courtesy of HBO NOW and it’s better than the theatrical cut IMO.Perfect swan song for the original cast. I’m sure it’s still superior over Apocalypse.

  • southafricanguy

    imho DOFP is the better film overall, and still the best Xmen film overall (with X2 coming second, and FC coming in third).

    I would personally love to see Whedon take a crack at it. He wrote the comics for a while, is a huge fan, and I would love to hear his dialouge in an Xmen film. He may be very open to doing it not least of all as he had such a falling out with Disney.

  • Stalk👁

    I had no idea that Joss had a falling out with Disney. Despite I’m no big fan of age of ultron, I give him huge props for his contribution to the first avengers film which is among my top 5 superhero movies.
    I remember watching an instersting motion comic based on the xmen which he had written the story and I was very impressed. I think it might still be up on netflix also he may be great for an xmen movie after all.

    I still prefer X2 over DOFP but not by that much. My major gripe with those movies is that Cyke has very little screen time and its more of the wolverine show than anyone else . It gets very frustrating and at least if the movie was in Wheldon’s hands, he would give each character equal time or in the very least give scott more of a role than just appearing as some pretty boy for a sec. I call bullshit on singer and FOX for those practices.

  • southafricanguy

    Well….not an official falling out….but remember all the candid interviews he was giving during the release of AOU? He sure seemed pissed off about scenes being cut and stuff being added due to studio mandate such as the Thor bath scene (I still dont know what the fuck that was about). And that he seems to now have nothing to do with the mcu going forward.

  • southafricanguy

    Sure….all fair points. But wolverine just became too popular…..though I do agree with you…too much focus on him. But I think dofp used Wolverine just enough…..and he isn’t the focus of the film (even gets tossed away at the begining of the climax).

    Thankfully cyclops is done well in Xmen Apocalypse. The best I’ve seen him done.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Well, I finally caught this mess of a movie; let me just say that Singer may have been taking a not-so-subtle jab at Brett Ratner with that “we can all agree that third parts are the worst” line, but he clearly lacks any self-awareness at all since Apocalypse is by far the worst of the “second” X-Men trilogy.

    Not since X-Men Origins: Wolverine has a movie in the franchise been so transparently padded with pointless, fan-service garbage purely for the purpose of branching out into possible spin-offs at a later date. True, the MCU movies do this as well, but usually a lot less noticeably. It got really distracting and borderline laughable at times.

    I wish this version of Quicksilver had not been Magneto’s son. It just comes off as ridiculously coincidental. And why was he still living in his mother’s basement like a teen, playing stolen arcade games, after ten years? (the timeline continuity is fucked, btw: Xavier and Erik are the two youngest looking fifty-year-olds ever seen). And the less said about the completely random Wolverine or Dark Phoenix set-ups the better.

    I didn’t hate it, but I didn’t love it, either. You’re right: fresh blood is now a necessity.

  • KilliK

    it’s not an awful movie, it’s as you said, pointless. a borefest.
    and how the cameo of Wolverine happened was Orci level bad writing. They just left his cage unguarded in the generator room. Christ..

    btw, Turd, will you see Warcraft? the american audience ignored it as it was to be expected and now hateful critics are even attacking Duncan in person. 🙁

    Duncan was too nice towards the douche interviewer . If Jim was in his place, he would have slapped him with his dick.

  • southafricanguy

    I agree that fresh blood is needed and it looks like it indeed will be the case as Singer has said he wants a break.

    I still liked it overall. I think it has more good points than bad, and I stand by my previous point that it’s no better or worse than the average MCU film (which also vary quite a bit quality wise).

    But certainly you can see Singer seeming to be in burn out mode. I think that very rarely can a single film maker make more than tow or three films in a series before they just run out of ideas, or they are burnt out on it (see Nolan on TDKR, or Peter Jackson on the Hobbit).

  • southafricanguy

    it is very unwarranted. Warcraft is flawed, but it has a lot of strong points too. I no sweet fuckall about wow but I was able to get the general gist of what was going on and enjoy it.

  • southafricanguy

    You what is damn weird?…..is how excited I am for Independance day 2…….weird because Roland Emmerich is not known for making quality films.But damn if the trailers and marketing has not sucked me in…

  • southafricanguy

    Are you going to see Independence day: Resurgence

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    “and how the cameo of Wolverine happened was Orci level bad writing. They
    just left his cage unguarded in the generator room. Christ..”

    Yep, and the entire sequence of the team being captured and taken to the Stryker’s facility came out of nowhere to begin with, too. It felt really bolted on.

    Regarding Warcraft, I might see it, but I can’t promise: there are so many movies coming out this summer, I can really only spare the time and money to see the most essential (to me). I don’t plan on seeing Star Trek 3 or the BFG or Tarzan or Bourne 5, and I certainly won’t be seeing that Ghostbusters garbage. Even Independence Day 2 is up in the air, for me; the only one I’ll definitely see is Suicide Squad. And after hearing forty minutes were cut from Warcraft, I’d rather wait for a director’s cut on Blu Ray to see Duncan’s full vision, if one is forthcoming.

    As for Duncan himself, that’s the first time I’ve heard him talk and he seems like a pretty nice, level-headed guy. Why the fuck is that idiot hinting to him that he isn’t “the writer for the job”? They should have dared to say that to Cocknose about Star Wars, but, of course, the geekoid interviewers only dare to say things like that to easy targets (by that I mean Cocknose being an established, powerful player in the industry, not physically).

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    I’m sort of looking forward to it, but as time gets closer to its release, I think it might severely under-perform. I’m not a fan of Will Smith and his enormous ego, but I do think the sequel loses something without him. It feels like less of an event, and the conceit that his character died between movies just makes ID2 seem like a cheap DTV sequel. But then Jurassic World was an unexpectedly huge hit based on nineties nostalgia alone, much to my eternal puzzlement, so what do I know?

    Plus, the movie is just under two hours long. Nothing wrong with that, you might think – it could simply be a very tight and well-paced story – but the original was almost a half hour longer and a shorter run-time makes it seem like the studio has been enforcing cuts. Emmerich’s movies are usually quite long. Again, it contributes to ID2 feeling less epic than it should.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    “I think that very rarely can a single film maker make more than tow or three films in a series before they just run out of ideas, or they are burnt out on it ”

    Generally true, but James Cameron will prove that rule wrong, I’m betting. Or, rather, prove it true by being the exception. 😉

  • southafricanguy

    Well….the four films will be all filmed back to back continuously. In my mind that counts as one huge film ala the LOTR trilogy.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    But LOTR (and The Hobbit) was really one long, continuous film cut into three parts. From my understanding, the Avatar sequels, although intended to be filmed together and form a larger narrative macro-arc, are all going to be somewhat independent, standalone films, like the first, with each taking place during a different generation. They’ll have beginnings, middles and ends, and each can be watched and enjoyed separately, no matter which of the others you’ve seen (or haven’t seen).

    If that proves to be the case, I regard them as four (or five, if we count the first) separate films, not solely a single epic. Cameron and his team will have to ensure each film builds upon its predecessor like a traditional sequel and is distinctive. They’ll have the challenge of coming up with fresh, unique ideas and stories for them all, avoiding repetition or just relying on the other films as a crutch. So, in many ways, I think the production does fit the problem you described.

    I also don’t expect Avatar 5 to be the last in the series, either. I remember Cameron saying this universe would occupy audiences for twenty years. He may have other sequels/prequels/spin-offs planned for later. And, if these initial four sequels prove to be the cash bounty they could and should be, Fox will be happy to oblige and, likely, encourage that.

  • southafricanguy

    All great points….but I want it to take a lot of money just to spite Smith and his giant ego…..The first film made him a movie star, and now his attitude is one of I’m too good for this.

    And yes….Emmerichs movies are about as dumb as Bays…..minus the creepy msyogny, xenophobia, racism and jingoism. And like Bay he does not really know how to tell a story well….but there are three things I will always give Emmerich

    1) he knows how to do epic scale and how to show it.

    2) Every cent of h Oh s films budgets are always all there on the screen.

    3) He isn’t Bay

  • southafricanguy

    all good points Turd. Of course it is hard for us to speculate since we really dont know what these films will be about and just how interconnected each film will be. It certainly will be a massive challenge. Didn’t Cameron say that it will basically be like filming a mini series?

    I think you are correct about the series continuing afterwards. But if that is the case I hope as spin offs ala Harry Potter=Fantastic Beasts so as to allow it to head down new paths and storylines. Also I hope said spin offs be given to other film makers (every film series benefits from fresh voices and perspectives).

  • southafricanguy

    I think he handled himself well in the interview.

  • southafricanguy

    are you going to check out Independence day 2 ?

  • southafricanguy

    that is true…..TLS did do it first…

  • southafricanguy

    Do you think the sequels will involve other alien races Turd?…..perhaps a war. (I really hope so, I have always wanted to see Cameron direct an epic sci fi war)…or travel to the other moons? A lot of stuff would need to happen to fill up four films.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    “Also I hope said spin offs be given to other film makers”

    Only if those other filmmakers are top quality ones personally selected and supervised by Cameron himself, like Alfonso Cuaron, Ang Lee, etc. I wouldn’t want Cameron to deliver some great sequels and then have incompetent people take over and ruin his creation, like the Terminator franchise.

    What do you think about Battle Angel, btw? Are you still interested in it, or do you think Rodriguez will ruin it? After so many years in development, I would hate for it to turn out a pale shadow of what it could’ve been, thanks to Rodriguez’s limitations.

    Whatever the case, the $200 million budget and mid-summer release date show that Fox are heavily investing in it. If it’s a blockbuster success, we could be getting Battle Angel sequels in the off-years between Avatar films, and Cameron will be juggling two huge franchises simultaneously; the former certainly has enough source material to sustain many films. 2018 could deliver a hell of a one-two punch for Cameron if things turn out well: BA in the summer, and Avatar 2 at Christmas.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    I’m not sure if the sequels will take place entirely on Pandora or go off-world. I remember reading one of those Avatar encyclopedias which pointed out that the planet has all sorts of radically different biomes, like deserts, polar regions, arboreal forests, archipelagos and tropical islands, grasslands, etc. So there will be no shortage of new environments even without traveling to other moons. It also said that, due to speciation, there are forms of Na’vi, isolated on different continents, that look absolutely nothing like each other. So even on Pandora alone, there may be different “races,” in a sense. And then, of course there are the Polyphemus moons, other planets/moons in the Alpha Centauri A/B star systems, and Earth. So that’s a lot of material to cover, even within the scope of four movies.

    That’s why I think there will be more sequels in the future. Travel to the other moons, and the introduction of entirely different alien races, might be left for those films/spin-offs to cover. Or maybe not. We just don’t know.

    One thing I would really like to see is each sequel slotting into, or at least echoing, a distinct sci-fi subgenre, the way Aliens and T2 differed from their predecessors. The first Avatar movie was a classic planetary romance; the others could be full-on action/ war films, or alien invasion films, or sci-fi horrors, or exploration films, or dystopian transhumanist cyberpunk films, and so forth. It’ll help keep the series fresh and enable each sequel to have a unique feel, even as the overarching themes and storylines remain consistent.

  • southafricanguy

    That is a lot of very interesting info Turd. I could many ways they could possibly go. I guess the RDA may also play a part in things. Perhaps they would use their bio engineering tech (creating the avatars) in some way….to create some kind of enemy?

    Cameron said that he purposefully left one scene in Avatar that was done so in order to set something up for the sequels. What do you think that scene is?

    Personally I think it’s the scene where Jake is looking at the skull of the leonopteryx and N’teri is explains about her grandfather uniting all the clans in some previous time of great sorrow. So…what was that?…..was there a previous alien invasion?

  • southafricanguy

    I will defend Superman Returns. A way more classy, elegant, and intelligent film that BvS

  • southafricanguy

    disaster porn is becoming tiring. Civil War did it right…..focused on the characters and what were the stakes for them….I think that keeps it a lot more interesting and involving for the audience. Whereas it seems audiences are just tuning out with all the constant end of the world, mass scale destruction in almost every blockbuster these days.

  • southafricanguy

    i am optimistic about Alita simply because it is not a Troublemaker studio production…it will clearly be a Lightstorm production with a script written by Cameron and Laeta Kalogridis (I cant spell Greek names to save my fucking life). RR is at his worst when he is 100% in charge of all aspects of production and he wrote and created what he is doing (except for Desperado, From Dusk till Dawn and Planet Terror). When he is doing material that already exists and he has a strong guiding hand…he is capable of Sin City. So I think with a good script, and Cameron and Landau involved….

    Plus it being a budget level at which RR has never worked….I think it can work well. The aim seems to be for RR to simply be the one that actually films the movie (tons of pre production work has long since been done along with the script….which is why I am guessing they are moving fast and are already casting).

    It could be a lot like when Tobe Hooper (not a director with a great filmography either) made Poltegeist even though it feels so much like a Spielberg film, or the first Transformers film for that matter. Or when Bigelow made Strange Days (one of the most criminally underrated films imho) which feels sooo much like a Cameron film.

  • southafricanguy

    who would be your dream director to make a movie set in the avatarverse?….and which actors would you like to see cast in the sequels

  • Block lives matter!

    Tell me about it. It shows how creatively bankrupt plenty of film studios are.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    I would have Cameron direct as many movies in the franchise as possible, so I don’t really have any dream director for the universe except he. But if someone else had to come in later, by necessity, I would choose Ang Lee, who isn’t afraid of technology, and who’d be great with fantastic visuals and the emotional side of things. Also, George Miller, who does very well with action and mythological archetypes and, if a darker entry was required, David Fincher. Remember, Fincher was tied to Rendezvous with Rama and Heavy metal for along time, so he obviously has aspirations to do more sci-fi.

    As for the cast, I’m hoping that Cameron’s ensemble appears in its entirety across the four films: Schwarzenegger, Biehn, Paxton, Henriksen, Goldstein, etc. I’d love for Cameron to work with Ed Harris again, too (if they can stand each other, haha). Even bring back the likes of Robert Patrick and Paul Rieser (as Giovanni Ribisi’s boss/CEO of the RDA on Earth), although that might be too self-referential).

    If we’re talking about those he hasn’t worked with before, for some reason I’d like too see Cameron work with Christian Bale (maybe because of that screaming fit on the Terminator Salvation set), although I don’t really expect to see current A-listers in this franchise; they’d be too expensive as the budget is better served going toward world-creation, and perhaps would also be too distracting for this type of movie.

    Oh yeah, and I’d like to see Cameron work with Sly Stallone, too, thanks to the Rambo connection. Maybe put him in the sequels with Arnold. That’s not too far-fetched, as Stallone was rumored to be considered for the Quaritch role, along with Biehn, before Lang got cast.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    “…..was there a previous alien invasion?”

    I think you’re right. The Na’vis resemblance to, and genetic compatibility with, human beings is suspiciously coincidental. The planet must have had alien visitors in the past, who possibly enslaved the natives and genetically experimented on them, before being repelled.

  • KilliK

    Goldstein as the MILF Na’vi…mmmm….

    Arnold should be the admiral of the human space armada. He lights a big cigar while we watch in the reflection of his flagship’s window the nuking of Pandora by his armada. hihihi.

    As for Sly, fuck him, I dont want that egotistical prick near the Avatarverse.

  • KilliK

    maybe albino bodybuilders? Arnold could be their leader.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Goldstein actually auditioned for the Dr. Grace Augustine role, but Sigourney obviously got it instead. And yes, Arnold should be in at least one of the movies, maybe as a general of Earth’s forces, and the man who was Quaritch’s superior officer before he came to Pandora. If one guy can plausibly play Quaritch’s boss, it’s Arnold. I don’t care how they make it happen, just make it happen.

    As for Sly, LOL. 😉

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Sounds too much like Prometheus, or was that the joke? Hehehe.

  • KilliK

    I hope we see Goldstein, Biehn and Paxton in the sequels.
    as for Arnold being Quaritch’s superior, it’s not a bad idea.

    I still think that Jim will do a T2 reversal with Quaritch, he ll become the protector of Pandora in the sequels. At least I hope so, I dont want him to be like Agent Smith from the Matrix sequels, they bring him back, give him super-powers and make him the main baddie, because he is a fan favorite from the original. that would be lame and beneath Jim’s unique way of evolving beloved characters.

  • KilliK

    btw, Turd, since you mentioned, do you have a link for the Crusade script? I would like to read it.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    No. I used it to have the script on an old laptop but I lost it. I got it through a link on the Scriptshadow blog (here: http://scriptshadow.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/crusade.html), but that site took down all its links years ago to avoid copyright claims. It used to feature a lot of rare screenplays for download, such as JC’s asteroid epic, “Bright Angel Falling,” but now it’s just a regular blog with opinions only.

    Maybe you could try the PDF file sharing sites; I don’t think it’s freely available on any of the large public screenplay sites (such a SimplyScripts).

  • KilliK

    Turd, did you read the original draft by Green or the treatment by Goldman?

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    It was a full script, not a treatment, and credited to both. First sequence was Arnold’s character (Hagen) infiltrating a castle to steal gold.

  • KilliK

    was in it a sequence with some kind of a shadow warrior?

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Eh? Don’t remember that.

  • KilliK

    you are getting old, Turd, you are getting old. (Bennett voice)

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Does the script you have feature a scene near the beginning with a gay priest seducing his two twink apprentices? I remember that! It was the first sign that this was Verhoeven at his scandalous best.

  • KilliK

    I found the script but I have to register to download it. but yeah, in its description it has that scene you mention.

  • southafricanguy

    Didnt cameron once say in an interview that there would be a reason revealed for why the Na’vi only have four limbs as opposed to the six that all the other creatures have?

  • southafricanguy

    Oh god…..please…I am still trying to scrub Prometheus from my brain…

  • southafricanguy

  • Stalkeye

    Finally got around to seeing this over the weekend and it is perhaps the worst of the X-men films. (Wolverine origins s within a different catagory of its own.) I have no love for Rattner, but X3 was at least servicible, unlike this cliche ridden snoozefest.
    JLaw has got to go! She was perhaps the most annoying thing about this film as well as Issac’s Apocalypse. Too much standing around with weak dialog to the entent that Singer rehashed the exchange between Xaviar and Lensherr; “I have a swell of pity for anyone who comes to harm anyone in this school”. WUT???

  • Sagamanus

    Singer is the kind of guy who looked at the covers of the comicbook’s and then began extrapolating as to what they were about.

  • Sagamanus

    Apocalypse was wearing the Lady Gaga mesh at one point. Not that that’s an issue…or yes it is.

  • Sagamanus

    Man, I disagree about First Class. I don’t think that is a step up at all for the series. Most think it is, not just you, so don’t think I’m just hearing this for the first time. It’s in the same vein, and offers only a few highlights more.

  • Sagamanus

    Gotta love 6ft tall Apocalypse. The comes cheap Apocalypse.

  • Sagamanus

    I just don’t know if I should watch this film. The fact that it even causes me any contemplation says something about it.

  • Dee-abolik

    yeah it looks ridiculous.

  • Dee-abolik

    It’s still bound to the established movie universe, but otherwise a breakout in terms of quality.

  • southafricanguy

    Sure…..and fresh blood is coming. With Miller on Deadpool 2 and Josh Boone on Xmen: The new mutants. And it is clear now that Singer will not be directing the next Xmen film. Who would you like to see do it? My top pick is Whedon

  • southafricanguy

    I like the casting of Waltz as Ido….though not a done deal just yet

  • southafricanguy

    I think some young talented directors could add a lot and really help build the avatarverse into something bigger. Everything from Star Trek to Star Wars has benefitted greatly from new voices being added.

    I agree with you about the Cameron regulars hopefully all being used. I would like to see some talented character actors like Lee Pace, or some Asian actors would be cool.

  • southafricanguy

    really?….I had no idea she had auditioned for that part…

  • southafricanguy

    well…..he does have a habit of flipping the villains. He even did it in Dark Angel

  • KilliK

    yeah, I am expecting that Quaritch will become the good guy in the sequels.

  • southafricanguy

    it’s certainly possible

  • southafricanguy

    and may be the more interesting way to go

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Yep, I think she was at a fan convention for Aliens and talked about it there.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    I think K is right. The planet consciousness, Ewya, will specially select Quaritch for his “good” qualities of tenacity, commitment and leadership and, divorced from the evil, authoritarian aspects of his personality, rebirth his soul in a new body and appoint him to be the protector of Pandora to stave off future human incursions (perhaps led by Schwarzenegger as the new military leader armed with some vastly upgraded avatar/genetically engineered lifeform tech – basically, the more advanced, T-1000-like villain of this story).

    Of course, if this comes to pass the idiots will criticize Cameron for “repeating” T2, but to hell with them. It’s still an interesting twist with plenty of dramatic possibilities.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    After Age of Ultron, I don’t want to see Whedon anywhere near a superhero movie again – not as a director, anyway. Bring back Matthew Vaughn. He made the best X-Men movie, IMO.

    I think the X-Men series, with the exception of Deadpool, feels very tired. It should be rebooted from scratch under a team with a coherent vision, but Fox only seem interested in soft reboots like DOFP, with one foot remaining in the past continuity. Additionally Simon Kinberg is terrible – almost as inept as Orci – yet holds the reigns of the overall IP. Why not hire Chris Claremont to oversee it?

  • Indrid Cold

    so it’s a rehash of T2?

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Only if you confuse a “rehash” with a plot having similar dramatic reversals and interrelationships in the broadest possible sense. The context, and the specific details, could be very different. As a TFA fan, you should know what a rehash really is.

    But we didn’t say that was necessarily the plot of Avatar 2, did we? We don’t know it and we’re only speculating. LOL. You’re so eager to get your licks in, you’ve started ahead of time. We have the delightful Episode VIII to look forward to in the meantime. I can’t wait to see how JJ (the real creative mind behind it) emasculates Luke.

  • KilliK

    I really hope this is how Jim will reuse Quaritch. I dont want another Agent Smith marketing gimmick, who was brought back because the fans loved him in the first movie and became the main, super-powered villain.

  • KilliK

    because villains becoming heroes was a concept first introduced in T2. uhah.

  • KilliK

    it’s going to be a bloodbath, man, a bloodbath.

  • KilliK

    Jim really needs to bring back Biehn, Goldstein and Paxton. and Arnold. it will be cool to see the old gang back and it will help to make the sequels more appealing and acceptable to the fanboys who hate the original.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    That’s very true. Remember a few years ago when there were rumors that Arnold would be the new villain? You had a lot of comments to the effect of “Well, Avatar was crappy but if this is true then it’s about the only thing that would get me interested in seeing the sequel.” It really exposed how the fanboys think; how shallow their preferences for certain movies are and for what underlying reasons, and how easy it is to manipulate them.

    Stick Cameron’s old crew in the movie; up the action content considerably; maybe do a role reversal and have the humans be the heroes this time: voila! Cameron wins back the fanboys and all but a few hardcore malcontents praise him for “returning to form” (even though he never dipped). Hehehe – whether it’s true or not, this time maybe he should publicize a use of more practical FX to balance out the CG!

  • southafricanguy

    There are a ton of possibilities for where it could all go.

  • southafricanguy

    But in all fairness you cannot really blame Whedon for what happened with AOU. It was clear that Disney/Marvel interfered and gave him a list of studio mandates of stuff that had to be included and its clear Whedon intended a longer film that fleshed everything else out better. Look at how much he was smack talking Marvel in interviews he did regarding how little control he had to cut the film he wanted to.

    I definitley would not say to Vaughn returning. That’s totally cool with me but I cant agree that FC is the best Xmen movie. Both X2 and DOFP are far superior.

    Also, I dont want a reboot…I am sick and tired of constant reboots and do overs. Stick with a goddamn series and let it grow and build. I seriously dont want to go over all the same territory again for fucks sake. The Xmen is finally at the stage where a lot of stuff (time travel, mutant warlords etc..) has been introduced that the really interesting stuff can start happening.

    So long as they bring on fresh creative people to take it in new directions it will be just fine as far as I am concerned.

  • Indrid Cold

    Can you provide another example of a sequel to a film where the main protagonist was the main antagonist from the previous film?

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Return of the Jedi.

    Next.

  • Indrid Cold

    lol.. Darth Vader was the main protagonist of Return of the Jedi? No.

    He turned good at the very end of the film. He was not the main protagonist through out.

  • Turd Has Escaped The Gravy

    Who do you think the titular Jedi is? It isn’t Luke, as some may assume. Vader was the true driving antagonist/protagonist of the saga and brought balance to the force by killing the Emperor. Luke was a sideman of sorts.

  • Indrid Cold

    The OT (and the saga in general) is about the redemption of Vader. We all understand that. To call Vader the main protagonist of ROTJ (or the entire OT, for that matter) is using flawed logic. Vader is one of the most iconic VILLIANS of all time for a reason. Vader had every intention of killing Luke in the Emperor’s throne room at the end of ROTJ.. hardly the disposition of a “main protagonist”. While Vader was ultimately redeemed, redemption alone does not make him a hero. The hero was clearly Luke.

  • Indrid Cold

    You don’t think the title “Return of the Jedi” has anything to do with Luke fulfilling his destiny of becoming a Jedi after all other Jedi had been massacred? The title has more than one meaning.

  • KilliK

    thanks, mate, I was gonna say that. saves the trouble.

  • KilliK

    yep

  • ErnestRister

    Ike and his story brain trust interfered with Whedon, not “Disney”, but Perlmutter was so insistant and unrelenting on incorporating certain story beats, Whedon was furious and refuses to work for Marvel again, Kevin Feige threatened to quit Marvel altogether. This went all the way up the food chain to Bob Iger, who in a very rare move, got involved and split the divisions, giving Feige autonomy. Iger is very hands-off, having to step in between the feud was necessary, but also a pain.

  • Dee-abolik

    For some reason they still count on the old cast, although only Jackman and Stewart are the last real stars left.
    There are also too many X-Men ripoffs, they should give it a rest for a few years.

  • southafricanguy

    Interesting….. So that is what that was all about

  • ErnestRister

    Yes, sir. “Disney” is hands-off on their divisions, they only interfere when they have to, and Alan Horn and Bob Iger have so much on their plate, it pisses them off when things like the Perlmutter/Feige feud occur. The attitude is that if they’ve hired the right people, they shouldn’t have to micro-manage. They leave Disney Feature Animation, Pixar, Marvel, and LucasFilm the hell alone alone to do their thing. I roll my eyes every time some dumbass internet know-nothing website authored by some fan who has never even stepped onto a production stage blabbers on about Disney ordering this or that, and they have no clue that it’s the divisions themselves steering their ships, not the corporate parent.

  • southafricanguy

    Then when it comes to the falling out with Ed Norton, Louis Lettier, Edgar Wright, Alan Taylor (which all centered on things being cut from their movies) et Al…is that just Feige making decisions regarding the cuts of the films, or is there larger studio interference?

  • ErnestRister

    Producers…People really need to realize “Disney” is essentially a distributor for these divisions, a corporate umbrella, and people need to let go of their Captain Planet 80’s corporate paranoia. Trust me, there’s more bullshit that happens with individuals at the conceptual stage than ever happens that far up the food chain.